 |
|
Aug 18, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02
|
#101 |
|
Master of Beasts
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]
|
Glad people realise that making it elite doesn't solve the problem.
What is needed is anti-spirit counters really - how about: Necromancers are the opposite of rangers in some ways, being about death and undead rather than life and spirits. Maybe necromancers should have powerful anti-spirit spell? Ward like abilities (or well-like, but then you deal with putrid stealing it), cancelling the effects of all nature rituals in the area. So long as you stay in the "Shield of Souls" (marked by ghost like forms writhing along the perimeter) no nature rituals affect you - and nature rituals within the shield have no effects. Mesmers could get a spell that imbues their wepon with the ability to instantly kill any spirit for 1-13 seconds from domination - call it "Astral Blade" or if you allow it on bows/wands "Astral Weapon", and it severs the spirit's link with the world. Rangers Could even get a spirit that prevented new spirits being cast in its region - "Furious Spirit"! this spirit will counter the next 1-3 spirits placed in it's area by either team, as the Furious Spirit jealously guards its domain. I think to fix NR doesn't involve weakening it - it is a needed strength - but it should have reliable counters. I have listed a few that aren't unbalancing I think - a mesmer one to kill spirits in play; a necro one to shield from the spirit's effects, a ranger one to prevent spirits from entering play. Can they be abused? Well, those afraid of spirit spam may spam the counter spirit, but even at 3 spirits prevented it isn't a big deal - besides, it's a spirit, it can be killed, right? The one hit spirit killer nerfs the Fertile Season's strength, but requires getting over to the spirit or hitting it with a missile weapon - so a smart group can protect with wards and the like, or disenchant the enhantment. Someone has blocked all spirits (with a Furious Spirit) but you want to lay one? Lay it inside the necro's Shield of Souls - sure, it loses it's effect when it comes into play (no dispelling with NR) as it can't have one within the shield, but simply stop spamming the shield and when it ends both spirits are in play. |
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11
|
#102 |
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jul 2005
|
The solution is simple: change one aspect of NR, make it so that it does not remove all enchantments and hexes at its birth, or maybe just remove hexes (which tend to be cheaper to cast and shorter lasting).
This means that the NR + Oath + QZ combo no longer works, while still keeping enchantments and hexes balanced against spike and straight up phyisical damage. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18
|
#103 |
|
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Texas
Guild: Scouts of Tyria
|
Not sure how viable this might be for countering a healing ball/spirit spam D build(its really one of those wild hair ideas).
Have one ranger in your group with high wilderness and have him lay down as many EoE as he can. Have a couple other players with 0 wilderness lay down multiple random spirits ideally within range of the opposing team so that they get targeted and killed. The high level EoE deals 43 damage per spirit that dies and has better health then the multiple 0 levels so it can last for the first couple deaths (along with the opposing team's). However once the first couple of your own spirits go down... chain reaction makes the entire ball collapse and gives your team a chance to function in a "normal" environment for a period. Sure the opposing team will try to reestablish their spirit defense, but then they aren't spamming healing spring, and are very open to disruption and death. It might even be possible if your team was good to time the death so that your spiker was coming online as ball collapses... Anyway, I don't have a group I can really test this with, but wanted to get some feedback from the gurus around here. So have at it! (and thanks) Last edited by bobrath; Aug 18, 2005 at 07:19 PM // 19:19.. Reason: cleanup on aisle 5 |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12
|
#104 |
|
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2005
Profession: Mo/N
|
Hmmm... if the Ranger has Mantra of Concentration/Resolve to prevent interruptions, how's about using Mesmer Shutdown/Energy Deprive against them?
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43
|
#105 | |
|
Academy Page
Join Date: May 2005
|
Quote:
If it was changed to that they could just chain it so every 5 seconds one dies with a little timing |
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55
|
#106 |
|
Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2005
Location: USA
Guild: [GSS][SoF][DIII]
|
They could make it so it only destroy severything if it actually ends. If its killed nothing happens. When it drops nothing happens. While its alive the cast times are doubled like it is now. That would result in some interesting "KIll the NR hunts"
If that happens they should reverse it so its duration gets shorter as you raise it to a higher level. In which case at level 16 it would last 12-15 seconds. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 09:23 PM // 21:23
|
#107 | |
|
Master of Beasts
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]
|
Quote:
NR's power is needed - in some form. The idea of having it at termination is good - it makes it a requirement to invest heavily in the attribute to get it working well. I still wouldn't mind seeing skills introduced as I described, as they are ways of countering the skills that would be interesting additions, but I do agree that the current NR environment is too restrictive and difficult to play in for any put a few builds - thus the spectrum of builds is reducedand the game gets kinda dull. |
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 10:04 PM // 22:04
|
#108 | |||||||||
|
Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
|
Quote:
It's a multi-tiered problem of proactive threats vs. reactive solutions. If someone wants to have a robust set of solutions they need to be prepared to have answers to just about anything - spike damage, efficient damage, enchantments, hexes, conditions, energy debilitation. Trouble is that while a defense has to prepare to deal with anything that comes along, an offense can simply overload on one or two aspects, and just run over the defenses any common build can show. Sure most builds run condition removal, but what can a build do if the other team just starts dropping them on everyone every second? Your Mends aren't going to be able to keep up. Hex removal is still solid, but what can you do if they start stacking a half dozen hexes onto the same target? Sure it's a heavy investment but that guy is just going to end up standing there doing very little until he gets hit by a Convert. Enchantments tend to be more defensive in nature, but the idea is still the same - most teams will bring some enchantment removal to deal with problems, but you can just up and overload it by piling more on than they can take away. This problem is made even worse, of course, by the fact that enchantment removal is naturally slower than the vast majority of enchantments, meaning that even if you ran every enchantment removal option possible, we could just run more enchantments and still come out ahead, as our enchantments are cheaper, faster, and recharge more quickly than your 'solutions'. So, no, there doesn't need to be a gross, Nature's Renewal level nuke in the environment, but there does need to be a sanity check, something on the level of Martyr, that'll keep people honest. The global nukes like Martyr keep people from completely overdoing it on any aspect of the game, giving tactical removal its useful role in fighting the balanced fight. Quote:
Quote:
I'd also like to point out how Ether Renewal based Smiters are actually thriving in a Nature's Renewal dominated environment. That should be a clear sign of just how abusive that particular build is, that you have a character based on enchantment stacking that's rawdogging it right through massive enchantment stripping and still devastating matches. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sure, you could do it, but it certainly wouldn't be ubiquitous. The existance of Arcane Mimicry in no way weakens the nerf that is slapping the elite tag on a skill. Quote:
Sure, it says it's a spirit, and it leaves a spirit in play once you use it, but the fact that it's a spirit really doesn't matter at all. Nature's Renewal is a two energy skill that destroys all enchantments. It just happens to leave a spirit in play that kicks you in the crotch while you're down. Skills that are effective counters to spirits simply would not matter against Nature's Renewal - unless, of course, they prevent you from putting Nature's Renewal down to begin with. Quote:
Peace, -CxE
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. |
|||||||||
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 10:21 PM // 22:21
|
#109 | |
|
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2005
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 10:36 PM // 22:36
|
#110 |
|
Guest
|
Same, I disagree with the drawback on mimicry part. I'd gladly take the semi-expensive mimicry+NR+Oath shot just because the effect of hosing entire team builds like that is so good. The energy engine for the guy does exist after all, so it shouldn't be too much trouble.
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 10:44 PM // 22:44
|
#111 |
|
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: Dark Horizons
|
As far as balance goes, I see one best way to handle this. (theory) If you use something in moderation whatever counters in the game for it will work as intended. Problems come when people mass a certain skill or build. In the current context we have/had people spamming enchantments. The current set of skills excluding NR do a decent job supressing mild enchantment use. However, these skills do practically nothing against mass enchants. There needs to be a skill or system in place to deal with this. However, whatever the skill or system is should not interfere heavily with the moderate use of enchantments such as NR. That is not to say that it can't, just that it shouldn't be practical. It seems Martyr would have the same effect, however it is much more balanced. While it does remove all conditions from the team, it transfers them to the user. Conditions are also very easily applied and Martyr doesn't have a lasting effect like NR.
Another example of this sort of system that works is the damage system used in most RTS style games. There are two main types of damage, single unit and splash. Splash functions as the protection against mass units, however, it can also be used vs a single unit but it is usually not practical to do so. The problem is the enchant/hex system in Guild Wars is on a much smaller scale than damage. Having a global removal system of even only 1 hex/enchant is detrimental while splash damage can be balanced by making it do a %less damage than a typical regular attack.In fact, lowering the number of enchants NR would remove would make it more practical against moderate enchants than mass. What would likely be more balanced would be giving a negative effect depending on the number of enchants being used. To protect those using only 1 or 2 enchants the effect would probably have to scale exponentially or be multiplied by the number of team mates also using enchantments. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 10:57 PM // 22:57
|
#112 |
|
Guest
|
They have to remove Natures Renewal from the rangers class also. It makes no damn sense being a Ranger skill.
|
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08
|
#113 | |
|
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2005
|
Quote:
I'm not even sure I like the double cast time mod, that's pretty brutal to some lines in the game. Sure, at face value you're looking at skill types of hexes and enchantments, but really that's Water Magic, Protection Prayers, Curses, etc. Spirits are interesting in their effects, but I think more than 1 needs to be looked at, and if not, why not go all the way with spirits to handle other classes? |
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2005, 04:54 AM // 04:54
|
#114 |
|
Academy Page
Join Date: Aug 2005
|
Hmmmz. Unless they make some changes to Unnatural Signet and make it somewhat useful, one possible compromise might be to have NR affect duration-times of enchantments, hexes and perhaps even spirits and minions. As long as the spirit's up, hexes and enchantments have a shorter duration, and all other spirits and minions have a [higher] health degen. When the spirit dies, all hexes, enchantments, spirits and minions die with it. Okay, so it might be a little overpowered but you get the idea
I've yet to meet this particular team build, but I was wondering whether a team which exploits the enemy's nature-rituals might be successful. This team would also be heavy on rangers or maybe warriors, and perhaps bring some complementary rituals such as GC+Winter+MoF to counter the damage from opposing rangers, and maybe spirit of failure or the like to ameliorate the energy probs. To get rid of the opposing teams spirits quickly, it could perhaps combine some extremely low-level spirits with a high-level EoC? Or how about a massive, long-lived minion-army with a few orders and shouts? Cheers! -- P Last edited by Hiawatha; Aug 19, 2005 at 05:04 AM // 05:04.. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2005, 02:47 PM // 14:47
|
#115 |
|
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Aug 2005
|
nerf natues renewal and
warriors will be useless again and rangers too. why? aegis spam and stuff and every1 will buff with heavy enh and no1 can kill each other with fertile season up |
|
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2005, 03:31 PM // 15:31
|
#116 |
|
Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Jun 2005
|
Easy fix...
A new and improved version:
Nature's Renewal (Nature Ritual) Create a level 1..8 Spirit. For creatures within its range, all Enchantments are removed. For 15..30 seconds, Enchantments take twice as long to cast. This Spirit dies after 15..30 seconds. Simple change... large consequences. Insanity Last edited by Insanity; Aug 19, 2005 at 04:14 PM // 16:14.. Reason: Typo |
|
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34
|
#117 | |
|
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Aug 2005
|
Quote:
duno |
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35
|
#118 | |
|
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Aug 2005
|
Quote:
i still think they shud remove all the ghostly hero crap and make pvp a 10 player map where 1 plyaer is chosen and gets a clamin resource skill |
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50
|
#119 | |
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]
Profession: P/
|
Quote:
And thanks for taking the scrubs to task. Far too many people just look at the spirit effects and figure they're losing simply because there are too many of them. So how's this for a fix: Instead of stripping enchantments and hexes, it just cuts their duration by a %, based on Wilderness Survival. (This of course applies only to enchantments and hexes cast while under the effects.) That way it can keep mass enchants in check without demolishing them entirely. |
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59
|
#120 |
|
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Guild: Servants of Fortuna
|
I don't do a lot of PvP and so probably will have missed something but here is my take and solution to the problem.
NR's ability to remove all enchantments and Hexs in an area is a great ability, who wouldn't take a skill that does that? which only costs 5 to cast? I think everyone is agreed that something needs doing. But you also need to ahve an effective counter to Enchantment or hex heavy builds. I refer to Martyr, which I think effectivly deals with builds that try and over run people with conditions. But Martyr has a big drawback, i.e. you get all the conditions which means that it won't be spammed. So i think there should be a Hex version of Martyr. would be an effective counter to Hex heavy builds but wouldn't be common enough to make all hexs pointless. also no body would spam it as they wouldn't want all those hexs. Enchantment clearly present a problem and so I suggest this skill: Remove all Enchantments from foes in the area and disable all enchantment skills for X seconds. you recieve X damage for each enchantment removed and disabled. the idea being that you stop mass enchantments and give your team a window to kill the opposing team. however you recieve a big dent to you health (maybe even enough to kill you) which would be a reason why people would avoid spamming it. obvioulsy might need some serious testing to balance it right with any other skills. then NR can be returned to stripping just one or two enchantments and Hexs |
|
|
|
 |
|
«
Previous Thread
|
Next Thread
»
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
Linear Mode
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| Sofia Sofia Sofia | The Campfire | 4 | Aug 11, 2005 05:22 PM // 17:22 | |
| Change Nature's Renewal | Rey Lentless | Sardelac Sanitarium | 27 | Aug 10, 2005 02:51 PM // 14:51 |
| Maltare | Sardelac Sanitarium | 2 | Aug 09, 2005 10:35 PM // 22:35 | |
| Anti Nature's Renewal (Finally!) | Darkrouge101 | Gladiator's Arena | 37 | Aug 04, 2005 10:57 PM // 22:57 |
| nature's renewal, where is? | Vulneraria | The Campfire | 2 | Jul 11, 2005 03:10 PM // 15:10 |
All times are GMT. The time now is 02:41 AM // 02:41.
jQuery(document).ready(checkAds()); function checkAds(){if (document.getElementById('adsense')!=undefined){document.write("_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Adblock', 'Unblocked', 'false',,true]);");}else{document.write("